The next is a transcript of an interview with Paul Whelan on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” that aired on Oct. 20, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’re joined now by Paul Whelan. Paul, it’s good to see you in particular person. Good to see you right here at dwelling. It has been a little bit over two months. How are you and why are you sharing your story with us now?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, thanks for having me Margaret. I believe it is vital for me to share what’s occurred to me and why it occurred, in order that others in, you realize, comparable life, touring the world, working overseas, do not fall into the identical entice that I did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is your recommendation do not go to Russia in case you’re an American?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively it isn’t solely my recommendation. The State Division says do not go to Russia. And in case you’re in Russia, you realize, please come dwelling. It is not a secure place for Americans proper now, and it is not- not pleasant for French and different European residents both.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, let’s speak about a few of what occurred to you. I do know you mentioned you had been woken up like each two hours by the guards throughout your practically 5 and a half years being held. Are you sleeping now? Can you make it by the night time?
PAUL WHELAN: It is higher. The Russian authorities wished to place strain on the USA by treating me badly. Sleep deprivation is taken into account torture. What the Russians did in Lefortovo Jail, it is the FSB jail in Moscow. They stored a light-weight on 24 hours in my cell. So sleeping was very troublesome. On the labor camp for 4 years, they might come each two night- or each two hours to my mattress at night time, and they’d wake me up. They’d shine a light-weight in my face and take an image. At first, they might ask me, you realize, what my title was, issues like that. But it surely became harassment. So for that 4 yr interval, each night time, each two hours, I used to be woken up. Getting off that sleep sample has been very, very troublesome. So now you realize, I am sleeping higher than I used to be, however it’s nonetheless tremendously troublesome to sleep for six or eight hours at a time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That transition dwelling is tough for many individuals who’ve been by comparable experiences to you. Let’s- let’s begin at first. For people who find themselves studying your story–
PAUL WHELAN: Okay.
MARGARET BRENNAN: –I believe that is vital. You had been in Moscow in 2018, as I perceive it, for a pal’s marriage ceremony. And Russia, I assume, has now launched a video of your arrest, exhibiting an acquaintance who labored for the FSB placing a flash drive into your hand in a Moscow lavatory. Moments later, you might be arrested. Who was that man? I believe his title’s Ilya Yatsenko. Who was he and did he set you up?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, these are points that I am probably not ready to talk about proper now. I’m going to put in writing a guide, and that is a scenario I will clarify within the guide.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The scenario that means your arrest?
PAUL WHELAN: My arrest, yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you suppose although that you simply had been focused, that- that you simply had been being arrange?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, I used to be actually focused. I hadn’t executed something. I hadn’t dedicated espionage. I used to be accused of being a brigadier common with the U.S. Protection Intelligence Company, the DIA. I actually, you realize, was by no means a common, and I by no means labored for the DIA, and I used to be by no means a undercover agent. So the case they got here up with was, you realize, materially false. I used to be clearly arrange. Quickly after being arrested, I used to be advised that I used to be being held and that due to Maria Butina being arrested–
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Russian spy.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, the Russians wished to do a commerce.
MARGARET BRENNAN: For that Russian spy being held right here in the USA. As I perceive it, on the time you had been a worldwide head of safety for an auto components agency. You will have a background within the Marines, you could have a background as a police officer, and also you had begun corresponding with Russians. You traveled to Russia on a reasonably frequent foundation. Did it ever enter your thoughts that there was cause to suspect that you simply had been a spy?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, you realize, since an early age, I have been touring the world. At 17, I began touring by Europe, you realize, on a Eurail move. I have been to China many, many occasions. I have been to Africa, the Center East, South America. I have been all over and I’ve at all times appeared on the State Division advisories as to the place to go, the place to not go, you realize, what to do, what to not do. You recognize, with Russia, you realize, I adopted that recommendation. I had taken my mother and father to Russia to see Moscow. It was secure for vacationers, you realize, on Pink Sq., utilizing correct inns and whatnot. There wasn’t a worry that non-state actors would come after us, you realize, the mafia, the criminals. The issue, although, is, you realize, you’ll be able to by no means inform what a rogue regime goes to do, and that is what the Russians are. They usually got here after me. They mentioned I used to be a spy, after which clearly they held me as a hostage. And that is- that is an vital half to convey up, is that I used to be a hostage. We use the time period wrongfully detained. We are saying arbitrary detention. However I used to be a hostage. And from day one, the Russians advised me that they had been holding me to do a commerce with the USA.
MARGARET BRENNAN: As a result of they know that the American authorities will struggle to get Americans again.
PAUL WHELAN: Proper. Yeah, who desires to depart a vacationer in jail for no cause?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Have been you working in any approach for any authorities? I do know you could have citizenship in Canada, the U.S., Eire, the UK.
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, these are points that I will focus on within the guide. It is nothing that I need to get into now. What I would love to do is focus on, you realize, the best way the FSB handled me, and what occurred within the labor camp, the corruption, issues like that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you do- however you do suppose you had been focused by the FSB, which is a part of Russian intelligence. In truth, the a part of Russian intelligence Vladimir Putin is claimed to really feel strongly about as a result of he truly ran that company.
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, the- the FSB runs Russia. You recognize, the overseas ministry has completely no management, no energy in any respect. The FSB does run Russia. Yeah, yeah, we’ve got to be clear about that. So when the FSB picked me up, it- they weren’t simply, you realize, a pair beat cops that noticed an American and thought they’d seize any person. This- this kind of factor comes down from Putin.
MARGARET BREANN: Do you suppose that he thought you had been a spy, or that it was all made up out of complete fabric?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, I do not know. I would not be stunned if decrease degree individuals made up tales that had been embellished as, you realize, individuals up the chain of command thought they’d a great story to inform, after which any person mentioned, ‘Hey, let’s act on it.’ And after they acted on it, they found out that I used to be only a regular man, a vacationer that, yeah, I would been within the Marines, and, yeah, I used to be a police officer, however I used to be only a regular particular person, a vacationer. I traveled the world, and there was nothing particular about me. The issue for the Russians is that they stored hyping me up, saying ‘he is a brigadier common.’ You recognize, ‘he is a undercover agent, he is with the DIA.’ We requested them for proof of any of that. And naturally, they by no means, you realize, they by no means confirmed any they by no means got here up with something as a result of it isn’t true.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It took some time for the U.S. authorities to offer you that wrongfully detained designation that you simply talked about. That’s recognition by the U.S. authorities that you simply had been being accused of one thing you weren’t responsible of, that you’re simply being held for political causes, primarily. Why do you suppose it took so lengthy for them to publicly say that?
PAUL WHELAN: I believe at that time- nicely, if we- if we again up a step and speak about wrongful detention, you realize, usually, it is a- it is a tin pot dictator, it is a banana republic, it is some little warlord who desires to realize favor with the USA that takes a U.S. citizen hostage, usually, vacationers, missionaries, issues like that. The Russians hadn’t executed this since 1986. They took the bureau chief for the U.S. Information and World Reviews hostage for 3 weeks as a result of the USA had arrested a spy. They charged him with espionage and a- and a commerce was carried out. At first, I believe individuals had been shocked as to what the Russians had been doing and it did take a short while for the, you realize, the gears of the U.S. authorities to show over and, you realize, do the precise factor by declaring me wrongfully detained. I am positive individuals appeared into, you realize, the scenario with the- the People being held in Russia, and appeared into the scenario with the Russians being held in America, they usually found out in a short time what the Russians had been as much as. You recognize, the Russians had been asking for individuals again for a lot of, a few years. The U.S. had mentioned no. The Chinese language had taken a bunch of Canadians hostage after Canada arrested a couple of Chinese language and that ended up in a commerce. And you realize, Putin publicly mentioned, nicely, this can be a good concept, you realize, if China can do it, why cannot we? It is profitable. So that they did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is hostage diplomacy, what you are referring to.
PAUL WHELAN: That is hostage diplomacy. However, you realize, I’m going again to saying, you realize, it’s a hostage taking. It is no totally different than a Mexican drug cartel. It is no totally different than any rogue prison enterprise taking any person and sticking them in a closet and holding them for a ransom.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And also you suppose it may well occur to anybody with a blue American passport?
PAUL WHELAN: It could occur to anybody. It could occur to anybody.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So once you had been taken, a couple of yr into your detention, your employer, BorgWarner, they restructured they usually laid you off.
PAUL WHELAN: Proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That should have hit you actually arduous as you had been sitting in Russia in detention. How did you take care of that?
PAUL WHELAN: For those who can name an act by an employer un-American, that was un-American. What- what actually bothered me wasn’t a lot shedding my job, however that BorgWarner continued to do enterprise in Russia whereas I used to be being held prisoner there. They refused to cooperate with the U.S. authorities. They refused to cooperate with folks that had been attempting to assist me. Even now, they will not communicate to individuals who contact them. It- it is a scenario the place they- they shortly lawyered up. They supported me for a short while, however as you mentioned, they laid me off, and since then, they have not executed something to help me or my household. They might. They might do the precise factor and get in touch with me and we may work one thing out. However, you realize, because the director of safety, {one of the} issues that I managed was kidnap and ransom. That they had a kidnap and ransom insurance coverage coverage. We had a crucial occasion administration program. We had issues in place to take care of this kind of scenario. And the very first thing that we- we at all times pressured was cooperation with the federal government and advocacy, you realize, for the worker, in addition to cooperation with the household. You recognize, easy issues like sending the mother and father flowers, ensuring that the household is included in discussions and occasions. You recognize, holding them, you realize, in- in that household as, you realize, Marine Corps households do, proper? Protecting them in that household so that they know that the employer is backing up their worker. However, yeah, it was un-American, and I nonetheless do not have an evidence from them as to why they did what they did, however it- it is a kind of bitter issues that simply type of, you realize, stays behind your throat.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah, had been you engaged on enterprise in Russia for them?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, I used to be- technically between Christmas and New 12 months’s so it is a interval that the entire firm has off. Numerous the- the automotive business retools between Christmas and New 12 months’s. So it is, you realize, it isn’t private trip, however it’s time without work. However in my place, you realize, 24 hours a day, I used to be coping with points world wide. We had been working in 23 international locations. It was a vacation for us, however it wasn’t a vacation in China. You recognize, there have been issues occurring. I used to be answering emails, cellphone calls, doing convention calls. I used to be truly being productive for the corporate on the day that I used to be arrested. So for them to, you realize, flip round and say, ‘nicely, yeah, we did pay on your visa. We knew you had been going there. We had no drawback with this kind of journey’ after which to type of, you realize, lawyer up and put it in a field and, you realize, seal it shut for therefore lengthy, that is not the precise factor to do, and no CEO ought to ever tolerate that from, you realize, his administration or her administration employees.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It is only a distinction with different People who had been detained: the Wall Road Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich, the WNBA star Brittney Griner. That they had advocacy behind them. Did you’re feeling that you simply had been simply there alone?
PAUL WHELAN: Omitted to dry? Yeah. BorgWarner left me out to dry. Yeah. BorgWarner left me out to dry. They- they may have executed a number of issues to assist me and my household, they usually simply did not trouble to they usually have not defined why.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So at a listening to earlier than your trial, you publicly referred to as on then President Trump that can assist you. You mentioned, ‘Mr. President, we can’t hold America nice until we aggressively defend and defend Americans wherever they’re on the earth.’ And also you referred to as on him to clarify in a tweet what he wished to occur. That- that by no means passed off. Have you learnt why the Trump administration wasn’t capable of convey you dwelling?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, it is one other subject that might take a very long time to clarify, and I will go into it in my guide. However at the moment, Mike Pompeo, Mike Bolton [sic], many members of Congress had been behind me, they usually had been working in the direction of a decision. I will inform you that the Russians stored altering the goalposts. They might suggest doing this or doing that, after which they might change their thoughts and wish extra. You recognize, the ransom stored going up. You recognize, they began with, you realize, a reasonably average ransom, after which when the U.S. mentioned, ‘yeah, we’re focused on attempting to resolve this,’ that- that ransom became a king’s ransom, and it kept- stored altering and altering and altering.
MARGARET BRENNAN: While you say ransom, you imply a prisoner swap or do you imply–
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah. Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Prisoner swap. We did communicate to members of the Trump administration who had been attempting that can assist you and to- to get you dwelling, however they did not take up that Russian press report that Viktor Bout, the so-called service provider of demise, the arms vendor, was what Vladimir Putin was actually searching for right here. Do you know that that was a proposal on the time to swap Viktor Bout for you?
PAUL WHELAN: Sure, the FSB advised me very, in a short time.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Actually?
PAUL WHELAN: That I- I- nicely yeah, they advised me that I should not do something rash and that I should not fear. The U.S. wished Maria Butina, Viktor Bout, and Konstantin Yaroshenko. They wished these three. Putin feels fairly impotent on the earth when the U.S. lengthy arm of justice can attain out and seize his residents and convey them again to the U.S., attempt them, convict them, and put them in jail. He hates it and so his reply was attempting to get Bout and Yaroshenko again. When he failed- after which, particularly with Butina being arrested, he resolved to hostage taking. However the- yeah, the FSB was very clear as to what they had been doing once I was arrested.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How did you hear that Viktor Bout was doubtlessly to be swapped for you? Have been you listening to the information? Have been individuals telling you over the cellphone? How did you find out about this?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, that is an fascinating story. I am- I am sitting within the manufacturing unit on the labor camp.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You- you labored within the manufacturing unit on the labor camp.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, we- we made winter coats, so I did the buttons and buttonholes and for 4 years I did that. I had two machines. You recognize similar to on a go well with coat or, you realize, any kind of jacket. I may by no means get the- the button and buttonhole, you realize, to match up. It was at all times type of simply off heart. I do not know why, perhaps their supplies, however I used to be sitting within the manufacturing unit, you realize, working at my machines, and I used to be advised to go to the warden’s workplace. I believed it might be a cellphone name or- or some kind of communication from our aspect saying that they labored out a deal. So, you realize, I used to be a little bit bit leery, but additionally, you realize, a little bit bit excited to go. I went to the warden’s workplace. After I bought there, I used to be a little bit stunned to see 5 FSB officers standing there. A number of of the jail guards had been there, after which one which I knew spoke a little bit little bit of English. The warden was there, and he had a cellphone, and he mentioned, you realize, Paul, there’s a- there is a name for you. It is the People. And so once more, I believed, nicely, perhaps that is it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What yr is that this?
PAUL WHELAN: This was 2022, yeah, it might have been the identical day that- that Brittney was launched.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Brittney Griner.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Effectively, let’s- let’s again up a little bit bit to- to undergo the timeline. So that you undergo this trial across the similar time you- there have been different People taken by the Russian authorities, together with Trevor Reed, one other former Marine.
PAUL WHELAN: Proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know that he was in jail?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, I did. You recognize it is a joke with Trevor, because- excuse me, he was truly at a camp close to me, and we had the chance to speak by the jail communication community.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What’s that?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, that is one thing I will get into in my guide, however principally, we had been capable of move notes backwards and forwards to one another so we had been in communication. And, you realize, figuring out that he was there and doing what he was doing, you realize, gave me some energy and helped me get by, you realize, my ordeal, and I believe him figuring out that I used to be shut by and doing the identical helped him too.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So different prisoners helped the 2 People join, despite the fact that they had been in numerous camps?
PAUL WHELAN: Proper. The- the labor camp that I used to be in was a world camp. It was primarily Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmenistan residents, Kyrgyz. We had a couple of–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Central Asian international locations.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, yeah, a couple of Cubans and a few Africans, however, you realize, we had been pretty shut knit household. They had been quite a bit youthful than me, for probably the most half, minor drug crimes, issues like that, which get a protracted sentence in Russia. Most of them beneath 25, so they might have a look at me in my 50s as- as an older man. They’re fairly respectful. It is cultural and conventional in- in that a part of the world. So when there have been issues that wanted to be executed, I- I might ask individuals, ‘hey, how will we do that?’ They usually’d say, ‘nicely, this is how we do it. This is what we will get executed.’ So it did allow, you realize, Trevor and I to speak backwards and forwards.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So in 2020 we’ll quick ahead to then, you are sentenced to 16 years in a Russian labor camp. You are about 300 miles east of Moscow, as I perceive it, on this camp. The U.S. ambassador on the time, John Sullivan, referred to as your trial a “mockery of justice.” All through this time period, there’s the COVID pandemic, the world is shutting down, the amenities should have been freezing chilly. Your loved ones, in public disclosures on the time, mentioned you’d misplaced an incredible quantity of weight. How did you cope? How horrifying was that?
PAUL WHELAN: From day one, I used to be being advised that there could be a commerce, a political resolution to this case. However because it dragged on, you realize, it- it did play with my thoughts. There was a- there was a psychological piece to this, that despite the fact that now, you realize, I appear to be I am doing okay, I’ve put again on a few of the weight that I misplaced. You recognize, I see an image of me from the jail, or I see an image of me from court docket that is on TV, and that takes me again to being in that court docket or being within the jail.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You will have PTSD.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, it’s- it is a type of PTSD, and it’s- it’s normal, you realize, with- with individuals which have been on this scenario, it will go away most likely over a couple of years, however it’s- it is arduous to, you realize, compartmentalize and block out that- that portion of what I went by.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Nobody may. That is traumatic.
PAUL WHELAN: I believe it’s extremely troublesome. And, you realize, you throw within the piece with the sleep deprivation and a few of the different shenanigans. You recognize, holding books, holding mail, not letting me, you realize, expertise my very own language. You recognize, not letting me hear my very own language. You recognize, despite the fact that it is in opposition to the legislation for them to attempt to power me to talk Russian, issues like that. Within the camp, we did not communicate Russian very a lot. We spoke Tajik. So my Tajik is definitely significantly better than my Russian now. And naturally, we spoke Tajik as a result of most people had been from Central Asia, and that is what they spoke. I do know a little bit little bit of Uzbek now, however it additionally meant that the- the jail administration had no concept what we had been speaking about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can you keep up a correspondence with any of these prisoners who’re nonetheless inside?
PAUL WHELAN: I’m. I’ve shut communication with their members of the family. So there are methods for me to- on- you realize, my cell phone, utilizing Instagram, Fb, various things like that, to speak. Russia does not permit Fb, Whatsapp and Instagram. They’re blocked, like in China. So, you realize, individuals there have to make use of a VPN, so it’s- it is easy for me to contact individuals in say Tajikistan or Uzbekistan and Cuba, and get messages backwards and forwards that approach.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So quick ahead to 2021. New president, President Biden, Vice President Harris, are inaugurated, and so that you wait, after which in 2022 the world adjustments dramatically. Not solely is WNBA star Brittney Griner taken in mid-February of that yr, Vladimir Putin shocks the world by invading Ukraine. How a lot of this had been you listening to by way of what was occurring exterior the jail?
PAUL WHELAN: I used to be lucky. The ambassadors and the consular groups from my 4 international locations, America, Canada, Eire and England would come and go to me regularly on the labor camp. I obtained a number of info from them. You recognize, I did get mail from dwelling. Numerous supporters world wide had been sending letters in. Numerous that got here by, you realize, the consular officers. I used to be in a position to make use of phone legally. There was a cellphone within the jail management room that I may use with a cellphone card to name my household. So I bought some info from them. I used to be in contact with authorities officers from my 4 international locations abroad, together with Roger Carstens, the Particular Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs. And I might additionally communicate with the members of the family of prisoners within the jail and get their tackle issues that had been occurring world wide. So I- you realize, I had a good quantity of data coming within the, you realize, the Russian media is simply propaganda. It is, you know- oh yeah- there is a forest hearth in Russia. Oh yeah, nicely, Canada has these too, you realize, it isn’t simply Russia. There is a automotive accident in Russia. Oh yeah, America has automotive accidents too. It is not simply us. It is- it is that kind of factor. It is all propaganda. They usually did not report a lot on the warfare. They usually did not report a lot on the warfare as a result of they had been shedding, and that was fascinating for us. Info got here in very, very slowly, however when the Russian authorities began taking prisoners from our camps to go to the warfare, then we knew they had been actually in bother.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is when mercenaries, the Wagner group, this- this Russian group, was going into the prisons and telling convicts, you may get out in case you come struggle in Ukraine. Did you lose individuals you knew to that struggle?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah. From my camp, 450 went. I knew all of them. A few of them are lifeless. Some have legs and arms lacking. They’ve all bought some kind of, you realize, PTSD. They went by a traumatic expertise. They had been used on the entrance strains to stroll by minefields. They had been used as cannon fodder. You recognize, they might be despatched out in entrance of patrols to attempt to attract the enemy hearth. I imply, that is what Russia is doing with these individuals, they usually’re all younger. Putin has thrown away a era of his youth within the Ukraine. For nothing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you in touch with a few of these convicts who went out on the battlefield?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, yeah–
MARGARET BRENNAN: — And that’s what they’re sharing with you?
PAUL WHELAN: Curiously, and I will go into this in my guide once more. The- the prisoners from the camp that went to the entrance line, they’d communication, and they’d talk with us, and the communication from them, I used to be passing again to the 4 governments–
MARGARET BRENNAN: How?
PAUL WHELAN: By means of unlawful cellphones.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You bought a cellphone into the Russian labor camp?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, yeah, we had burner telephones.
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is fairly unbelievable. And the guards did not learn about it? Or they only appeared the opposite approach?
PAUL WHELAN: They appeared the opposite approach. A Russian jail guard will get three, 4 hundred {dollars} a month. You give them a carton of cigarettes and you are able to do absolutely anything you need. Russia is corrupt from the underside up and the highest down. It is- it is the kind of society they’ve and the prisons, you realize, it is a direct reflection of the society. So whereas they take hostages on the prime, on the backside, the jail guards are taking, you realize, blocks of cigarettes, cartons of cigarettes, that is the foreign money.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So on the skin, information organizations like CBS had been studying about what was occurring to you thru your loved ones. You will have a twin brother named David who would write letters, emails to reporters, documenting what you had been sharing with your loved ones about your expertise. Your sister visited D.C. 20 occasions within the first three years. It is fairly unbelievable to consider simply strange People attempting to shake the White Home and the Kremlin into motion. Have you ever been capable of course of that and- and what your loved ones went by?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, it is unbelievable. And, you realize, I have a look at my mother and father who lived by World Battle Two, they’re fairly resilient. We had been introduced as much as exit and do issues, to not sit at dwelling and cry about failures. As I mentioned, I traveled the world. My brother traveled the world, David. Andrew, my different brother, he traveled the world. My sister has traveled. It was in our nature to face up and say, hey, look, this is not proper, and attempt to do one thing about, you realize, ongoing issues, both in our communities, within the nation, what have you ever. So when the Russians took me, you realize, that is what my household did, they stood up and mentioned, this is not proper. What are you going to do about it? And clearly, you realize, there’s the Hostage Restoration Act, there’s SPEHA. There are these- these groups of individuals, the State Division, the hostage fusion cell, which incorporates the FBI and the nationwide safety crew. They’re there, and their job is to get again individuals like me. And you realize, ultimately, they did. They did a hell of a job.
MARGARET BRENNAN: However you went by a lot earlier than you noticed freedom. Trevor Reed, that different prisoner we talked about, he was freed in alternate for a Russian drug vendor. American diplomats advised us Trevor Reed bought out as a result of the U.S. feared he was going to die in jail, however you had been left behind. That needed to damage.
PAUL WHELAN: Devastating, devastating. I used to be advised a deal was within the works. I used to be advised that I might be dwelling quickly. Trevor and I might be getting on a airplane, flying out of Russia.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Collectively?
PAUL WHELAN: Collectively. And we might land, you realize, someplace close to Washington. We might go to Texas, to the reintegration heart and sadly, I used to be sitting within the manufacturing unit working and on the radio, the Russian radio, I heard {that a} deal had been made and a trail- commerce had taken place for Trevor to go dwelling and Konstantin Yaroshenko to go dwelling additionally. And so I- all I may do was simply sit again and attempt to course of what I had simply heard in Russian, and what I clearly understood, and the individuals working with me had stopped, they usually had been me, like, what does this imply? And all I may do is simply, you realize, carry on working. After which later, I bought to a cellphone, and I used to be capable of name Roger Carstens, and I requested him some fairly direct questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: He is the hostage envoy.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, I requested him some fairly direct questions.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What did you say?
PAUL WHELAN: Principally, WTF, yeah. Why am I right here? I used to be glad that Trevor went dwelling. That is not an issue. I used to be glad that Trevor went dwelling, particularly as a result of he- he was struggling some medical situations. He had you realize some points, and principally the Russians and the U.S. mentioned that- that Trevor going dwelling and Konstantin going dwelling was a humanitarian alternate. And I mentioned, ‘okay, that is nice, however what about me? I am nonetheless right here. What are you going to do?’ You recognize, I requested to talk to Secretary Blinken. And naturally, he and I had a number of lengthy winded cellphone calls from- from jail.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Between the State Division and the jail?
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are talking with the Secretary of State. Did he apologize?
PAUL WHELAN: He defined, and he let me know that, you realize, the USA was coming for me. They had been doing every thing they may, that the Russians stored altering the goalposts, particularly when Krasikov was arrested, the murderer from the FSB in Germany. They usually- they had been actually doing every thing they may. He is a great man, and, you realize, I’ve met with him personally since my launch. I believe that he and his crew had been doing every thing that they may at their degree to get me dwelling. You recognize, whether or not different individuals at increased ranges actually had been, I do not know. You recognize, I hear speak about crimson strains and folks saying, ‘nicely, we will not cross crimson strains to get Paul dwelling.’ Effectively, who drew these crimson strains?
MARGARET BRENNAN: What do you imply crimson strains?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, issues the U.S. would and would not do to get me again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Individuals they might commerce or not commerce? Is that what you imply?
PAUL WHELAN: Individuals, perhaps sanctions aid, different issues, you realize, would they arrive to get me? Would they arrest Russians in order that they’d a pool to commerce, issues like that? So I knew that- that Antony Blinken was doing the precise factor. And, you realize, I used to be assured that his crew was doing what they may to get me dwelling. And you realize, I used to be assured that the USA would get me dwelling. They do not go away individuals behind. But it surely’s a gradual slog. It is troublesome, and with the Russians always saying that I used to be extraordinarily helpful, it simply made it that rather more troublesome.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In order that’s April, after which months later–
PAUL WHELAN: Proper. I am nonetheless there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are still there. And Brittney Griner, a WNBA star who’d been picked up on, you realize, drug fees, was freed in alternate for Viktor Bout.
PAUL WHELAN: Proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The service provider of demise. Your twin brother David mentioned it was “a public disappointment,” however he feared it might be a “disaster” for you and he wrote on the time, ‘How do you proceed to outlive day after day when you realize your authorities has failed twice to free you from a overseas jail? I can not think about he retains any hope {that a} authorities will negotiate his freedom at this level’ Your loved ones was actually anxious about your nicely being.
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, I used to be too. I used to be too.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Was that your lowest level?
PAUL WHELAN: That was. And, you realize, I began to clarify earlier that I had been working within the manufacturing unit, I used to be referred to as to the warden’s workplace, the FSB’s there, and so forth, and so forth. There is a cellphone name for me. I choose up the cellphone. It is the White Home. It is considered one of the- the- the officers with the- the DHS, and he principally tells me that, you realize, Brittney Griner was going dwelling, that the commerce was for Viktor Bout. And you realize, I requested him level clean. I mentioned, so ‘what else do it’s important to commerce?’ And he mentioned ‘nothing.’ I mentioned, ‘You gave up your negotiation platform. There’s nothing else. How do you now get me again?’ And he mentioned, ‘Effectively, you realize, we will reconvene tomorrow to debate that.’ And I mentioned, you realize, I mentioned level clean to him, ‘you notice what you have executed, that you have deserted me right here. You don’t have any one to commerce. They do not need anybody else.’ And he mentioned, ‘Sure, sure, we notice that.’ And I mentioned, ‘nicely, you realize, you realize, say good day to Brittney. I am glad she’s going dwelling.’ You recognize, she should not have been there in any respect ever. I imply, she should not have been arrested. I should not have both. Trevor should not have both. I used to be glad that she was going dwelling, simply as I used to be glad Trevor was going dwelling. However I mentioned, you realize, to the gentleman on the cellphone, ‘you’ve got to do extra. You’ve got to do one thing.’ And you realize, that was my grievance all alongside. And once I was in court docket, I, you realize, I would maintain up my indicators and say you have to do one thing, take some motion. And that is {one of the} issues with- with the U.S. coverage on hostage diplomacy. We’re- we’re pretty good at getting individuals again, okay, however that’s- that is not the deterrence that is wanted. The U.S. authorities has bought to have a coverage the place they deter international locations like Russia and China from taking our residents within the first place.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So they only do not refill the coffer with the subsequent American. You mentioned to CNN on the time that leaving you behind the primary time put a goal in your again.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The second time, signed a demise warrant.
PAUL WHELAN: Proper.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What did you imply by that?
PAUL WHELAN: Effectively, a goal on somebody’s again signifies that they’re free recreation. If they’ve a goal on their again, hey, you’ll be able to go after that particular person. You recognize they are not protected.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Who? You had been afraid on your wellbeing within the jail?
PAUL WHELAN: Oh, yeah. Individuals within the jail, fellow prisoners, the FSB jail guards, any person who wished to make a reputation for themself, you realize, somebody whose father had been within the Soviet Military. And, you realize, hey, if I hit this American, or do one thing to this American, then, you realize, that’s- that is farther than my grandfather bought, proper? The Russians are actually paranoid about us, and there are a number of good Russians. There are a number of good individuals in that nation, however they’re paranoid about us, and it’s- it is because of propaganda. However having a goal in your again isn’t a great factor. After I mentioned that the president had signed the demise warrant, what I meant was that now it was no holds barred. Anyone may do something they need.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Did that occur?
PAUL WHELAN: Sure and no. The folks that I were- that I used to be in jail with, had been fairly respectful. They knew Russia. They0 from their very own experiences, needed to take care of the Russian courts, with the Russian police, with the Russian FSB. They knew that what was occurring was political, they usually had been fairly protecting of me. Now there was an incident final yr, a brand new prisoner, who was about my age from Turkey. He did not like the truth that the U.S. was serving to Israel. He was Muslim, and I am working at considered one of my machines. He is on the opposite aspect of a desk, and he leaned over and hit me on the aspect of the face. It wasn’t, you realize, it wasn’t the worst hit on the earth that I’ve ever taken, however it confirmed me that, you realize, a few of the inhibitions had- had lessened, proper?
MARGARET BRENNAN: However the U.S. authorities did proceed to attempt. And in reality, the Russians began testing out, as you talked about, that murderer who had shot lifeless somebody in the midst of Berlin, and the Russian authorities wished him again. That was the title they had been floating as a possible commerce.
PAUL WHELAN: And that- and that was- they- they’d made that demand earlier than Brittney Griner was traded–
MARGARET BRENNAN: That was Vadim Krasikov.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, as quickly as he was arrested, they mentioned, ‘we’ll commerce him for Paul.’ So when- when Brittney got here dwelling, the Russians were- had been attempting to get Krasikov again.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And this was extraordinarily troublesome. President Biden needed to persuade the German Chancellor to free a convicted murderer who shot somebody lifeless within the mild of day in the midst of Berlin. However in the end, the German authorities agreed to do this. It is {one of the} causes President Biden is in Germany proper now. What did you consider that commerce?
PAUL WHELAN: You recognize, that is a problem I will go into in my guide. It is- it is complicated. I am glad the President did what he did to get Evan and I dwelling. You recognize, there have been a couple of others, Alsu, she got here dwelling. A few of Navalny’s individuals had been launched. While you’re the president, it’s important to make robust choices. While you’re the Particular Presidential Envoy for Hostage Affairs, it’s important to work tremendously troublesome negotiations. However once you’re coping with a rogue like Putin and a rogue nation like Russia, that is the kind of factor you have to do. And so once I speak about deterrence, it is ensuring that the Viktor Bouts of the world, the- I forgot what his title is, Ivan Krasikov, no matter–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Vadim Krasikov.
PAUL WHELAN: Vadim, yeah, Krasikov, these kinds of individuals keep the place they belong, behind bars. However the U.S. coverage needs to be considered one of deterrence. They have to do one thing.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They bought to make the price increased, you are saying, in order that an American isn’t––
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah. The Russians- the Russians, hadn’t pulled this between 1986 and 2018 once I was arrested, they hadn’t executed it. Why? There was a cause. They hadn’t executed it. In 2018 they felt they may, they usually, proper now, are arresting Americans that stay in Ukraine, that stay in Russia, and which might be visiting even in Kaliningrad, they’re arresting Americans left, proper, and heart. So the U.S. coverage needs to be considered one of deterrence. You recognize, the opposite factor I need to convey up with that’s, once we speak about wrongful detention, there are individuals like me, who’re simply grabbed off the road and held hostage. However there are folks that stay in Russia, or who go to Russia, Americans who do fall, you realize, foul of the legislation for no matter cause. Between the Russian authorities and the USA authorities there’s a treaty, a prisoner switch treaty, the Division of Justice owns it, not State, however Justice. The Division of Justice must do extra to switch Russian prisoners dwelling and get again American prisoners. There is a mechanism to do this. It is not simply what falls upon the State Division beneath the Hostage Restoration Act and the Levinson Act, there is a lengthy standing treaty that we’re not utilizing, and a part of the deterrence could be to make use of that treaty to do a few of this buying and selling. As a result of in case you’re- in case you’re buying and selling the prisoners backwards and forwards, there is not a necessity for hostage taking. Does that make sense?
MARGARET BRENNAN: It does. I need to ask you about what’s in your lapel there. You will have an American flag pin.
PAUL WHELAN: I do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: While you did make it out on this hostage swap, you landed right here in the USA, and it was President Biden and Vice President Harris who met you on the tarmac. You had been the primary off of that airplane that was carrying two different American prisoners as nicely. What did that imply when President Biden put that flag in your lapel?
PAUL WHELAN: After I bought on the airplane in Turkey to come back dwelling, I did not notice we had been going to Andrews.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Since you flew from Russia to Turkey, that is the place the swap occurred –
PAUL WHELAN: Proper, yeah we went from Moscow to Turkey after which Turkey to Andrews Air Drive Base. I did not notice we had been going to Andrews, and I did not notice the president and the vice chairman had been going to be there. You recognize, I used to be- I had been in solitary confinement for the 5 days previous to leaving at Lefortovo Jail in Moscow. You recognize, I had on garments that I had worn in 2018 once I’d been arrested. You recognize, they hadn’t been washed. They had been too massive for me. I used to be very cautious coming down the- the, you realize, the steps from the airplane. You recognize, I used to be- I used to be advised I may go first as a result of I would been held the longest. However, you realize, you- you see the the steps come down, and the president and vice chairman are wanting up on the airplane, and I am within the airplane, and I am searching, and I am all of the media saying, wow, okay, you realize, I would like to determine how to do that actually shortly. And so I got here down slowly. I, you realize, I waved at folks that had been waving at me, after which I gave the president a salute because the Commander in Chief. And I simply walked all the way down to him and began speaking to him, you realize, I thanked him for getting us dwelling. You recognize, thanked him for, you realize, what it meant to me and my household, in addition to the others that had been, you realize, on the airplane coming- coming behind me, you realize, it is, you realize, it is a kind of conditions you’ll be able to’t actually plan for very nicely, however President Biden, he was very, very personable. Identical with Vice President Harris, you realize, you noticed us. We embraced, we hugged, we chatted. You recognize, at one level the president took the, you realize, the flag lapel pin off his lapel and put it on my shirt. You recognize that- it was speculated to be a choreographed like receiving line, the place we might get off the airplane, we might shake fingers, after which, you realize, meet our household and go into the operations constructing on the Air Drive. However that is not what occurred. And we simply, you realize, we type of milled about chatting and speaking to the media and whatnot. And you realize that that made it actual, as a result of we had been, we had been with actual individuals. Jake Sullivan was there, Nationwide Safety Advisor, a few of the different folks that had helped get me dwelling had been there, and we- we talked, you realize, we chatted. There was a humorous image, I believe I’ve despatched it to your crew of within the operations constructing, there was a TV on, and I am standing by the TV watching, and any person mentioned, ‘Oh, that is, it is simply the Olympics.’ I used to be like, ‘actually?’ As a result of I hadn’t seen the Olympics, and it was girls’s basketball. And as I am wanting, I mentioned, ‘Hey, look, it is Brittney. Brittney’s on TV.’
MARGARET BRENNAN: Brittney Griner.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, yeah. But it surely was simply, it was a kind of unbelievable moments the place you are, you realize, you are lastly connecting issues, yeah, and, you realize–
MARGARET BRENNAN: That is surreal.
PAUL WHELAN: It’s, however you realize, Brittney was an important assist after she got here dwelling, you realize, I believe most likely the, you realize, inside days of her getting dwelling, she- she was speaking to individuals about how they may help me, and he or she had individuals making financial donations, sending playing cards, sending letters, providing all kinds of help, her- her basketball crew, all kinds of help. And, you realize, those- these playing cards and whatnot that got here to the camp, they did not simply profit me. They benefited all of the folks that I interacted with who by no means get any mail, as a result of it is, you realize, of their tradition, it’s extremely troublesome. It is simply not what they do. However all these playing cards and issues coming in, they’d by no means seen this. So this was type of like a chunk of America, a chunk of the West, and all of my buddies would take the playing cards and attempt to learn them. They, you realize, they’d need the cardboard due to the image on the entrance. So every thing that she did, in addition to others sending in playing cards and letters and issues, that basically helped me, however it additionally helped all the opposite individuals within the camp. And we had been, you realize, we had been identified like me and my buddies and whatnot- whatnot, we had been identified for having all these letters and playing cards. And folks would come and, you realize, need to simply have a look at the playing cards. You recognize, they could not perceive the English, however they wished to have a look at the playing cards and see what the West was like, you realize, and the Christmas playing cards, the Easter playing cards, issues that within the, you realize, these Muslim international locations, they only do not have. So yeah, she did quite a bit to assist me. And, you realize, I used to be glad she bought again, and I used to be glad that when she bought again, that she, you realize, then turned her consideration on, not simply her reintegration, but additionally, you realize, my launch, and what she may do morally to help me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So inform me what that- that second was like once you’re on the airplane, and also you mentioned it did not really feel actual till you had been flying over England. What was it that you simply noticed that hit dwelling for you?
PAUL WHELAN: So, you realize, we left Turkey. We’re flying over Europe. We needed to go to Turkey as a result of we could not go wherever close to the Ukraine. Russian planes cannot go there. We could not go wherever else in Europe, as a result of the Europeans will not let the Russians in. So we might gone to Turkey, and now we’re flying again throughout Europe. And we’re in a small airplane, CIA airplane. You possibly can see the bottom. You recognize, you possibly can see every thing. And I used to be following the tracker. There is a- there is a tracker, there is a display screen. So I used to be following our actions. And I knew we had been getting near England, and as we bought nearer, I noticed the White Cliffs of Dover. So, you realize, there was- there was completely no query. I imply, they’re so white, they’re whiter than the White Home. You possibly can see them from a protracted methods up. However I knew the place we had been, and I knew that, you realize, despite the fact that, as an Irish citizen, I am- I am a citizen of the EU, I knew that after we had been in, you realize, pleasant British airspace, we’d then go to Irish, we might quickly be in Canadian airspace, after which be in America. So, yeah, that was good.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You needed to have considered your mother and father too.
PAUL WHELAN: Yeah, yeah. And, you realize, my members of the family, you realize, in England and Eire, and truly in France and Poland additionally, you realize, they had been monitoring what was occurring. They knew what was occurring. And, you realize, I considered them figuring out that I would be flying over, you realize, their houses on my approach again. So, yeah, it is nonetheless emotional to today. It is not each day that you simply’re held hostage. It is not each day that you simply’re launched. So there’s quite a bit, you realize, you speak about PTSD, there’s a number of that that comes again in a optimistic method. And you realize, that was a kind of moments the place I wasn’t anticipating to see the White Cliffs of Dover, however I did, and, you realize, in the course of the warfare they, they guided the Spitfire pilots again, and, you realize, for me, it was guiding me and Evan and Alsu again to United States. So, yeah, it is still- it is nonetheless a kind of issues that- that I take into consideration, it’s- it’s- it is emotional, and I am positive it at all times might be, however you realize, that is {one of the} good reminiscences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thanks for sharing your reminiscences and for speaking about this. I do know takes quite a bit.
PAUL WHELAN: Thanks, Margaret. I respect being right here. I respect the time you have made to share my- my story, and to get what I am attempting to say to the U.S. authorities and the U.S. individuals throughout.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thanks.
PAUL WHELAN: Thanks.